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Topic Title: SoLU streetcar, streetcar tracks flangeway filler and public safety
Created On Saturday November 03, 2007 10:37 PM

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Beck the biker
Senior Member

Posts: 812
Joined: Sep 2004

Saturday November 03, 2007 10:37 PM

Just took a ride in the SoLU neighborhood yesterday to check out the status of the new South Lake Union Streetcar.
Let me just say- ACCIDENTS WAITING TO HAPPEN.

everywhere the track is laid there is a serious bike tire eating gap. these tracks run on a lot of streets - I heard at Bryce's memorial ride there have already been multiple accidents from the streetcar tracks.

I'm concerned about the gap in the tracks that run parallel in the road surface on the streetcar route. Does the city have the 'right' to CREATE hazardous road conditions for bicyclists? What gives?

This 'railroading' of bicyclists' safety to the will of Paul Allen's development scheme is very distasteful. I think it should be illegal for the city to create unsafe road conditions with the installation of the streetcar tracks.

What does the bicycling community have to do to investigate this in-our-faces snubbing of bicyclist safety?

There is Flangeway filler suitable for filling the gap in slower speed rail tracks. This is currently used (in other cities) at grade crossings where tracks cross roads. Seattle presumably won't or can't find flangeway filler suitable for the entire line? Someone told me that 'flangeway filler' doesn't exist for this application. I say BULLY to that, the city is feeding bicyclists a load of hooey along with unsafe road conditions created by the installation of the new streetcar line.

Where does the city come off, creating such hazardous conditions in the roads we bicyclists have the right to ride on, in the midst of adoption of the bicycling master plan??? These track conditions will continue to eat more bicyclists' wheels, more accidents will result by the city's poor planning and placement of streetcar tracks directly in streets rideable by bicyclists.

What if this streetcar idea catches on and the city decides to place even more track throughout the downtown core? Surely this shoud be nipped in the bud before more accidents arise or roads made unsafe for bicycling.

does anyone have any opinion on the lack of concern for bicyclists' safety exhibited by the city with the installation of the SoLU streetcar?

Edited: Sunday November 04, 2007 at 12:25 AM by Beck the biker

John Weller
Senior Member

Posts: 598
Joined: Dec 2005

Saturday November 03, 2007 11:58 PM

Ah, the SLUT tracks. Wide open and waiting for us.

Dunno about the SLUT design process that resulted in open track channels. However, it's evidence that Seattle is trying to catch up with Portland in rail transit and its effects. The Portland city center is criss-crossed with Max (light rail) and downtown trolley routes. All the ones I've looked at there since the first reports on the SLUT threat to bikes feature unfilled tracks. My son, a student at Portland State, crashed and burned on a bike in a track channel (no injuries that he'd admit).

Maybe Ted Van Dyck the flyingdutchman knows more about that issue, since he lives thereabouts. Might be some accident stats from Max and the Portland downtown trolley that can be used as a predictor of what will happen here with the SLUT.

Lee Williams
Senior Member

Posts: 603
Joined: Jun 2005

Sunday November 04, 2007 2:26 AM

Word on the street is that Cascade has at least got the non-SLUT tracks at the big Fairview/Mercer intersection on the fast-track for removal.

I think the general sense is that the entire structure of roadways in SLU is getting changed up so much - one ways getting changed to two-ways, cobbled and brick streets being repaved, etc, that the city is kind of ignoring bicycles until it's finished, with the idea that it'll be all fine when it's done. Of course, by doing that I think they're not necessarily counting the liability for cyclists getting injured before they've solved everything - like my friend Jess who took a spill on the Westlake tracks a month ago.

geoff hazel
Senior Member

Posts: 437
Joined: May 2003

Sunday November 04, 2007 4:42 AM

I just don't understand why it's so difficult to remove old tracks. Get a big powerful machine, hook on to them, pull them out, and fill in the hole with concrete or asphalt.
If it makes too big of a hole, cut down each side with a diamond saw before pulling out the rails.
I think some of them have been in place but unused for 10-20 years!

-------------------------
Commuters do it twice a day.

Michael Snyder
Senior Member

Posts: 1799
Joined: Jun 2006

Sunday November 04, 2007 11:50 AM

After riding along westlake from the south end of lake union to Westlake Center a few times on non-commute hours, both alone and with another cyclist, my impressions are:

1. The tracks in the right hand lane make it troublesome for safe speed appropriate lane positioning.
2. For a somewhat decent cyclist on a road bike, I don't want to get within 6 inches of the tracks for fear of accidentally getting flipped.
3. When I do cross the tracks, I need 2 feet of room to take it at a decent angle.
4. All together, the tracks leave me with about 3 feet of usable room out of the full lane.
5. I am grateful for the frequent long stoplights so I have more time to make eye contact with drivers.
6. Without a filler, unless alternate signed bicycle routes are added, we are going to see a few concussions a year as a result of this (talk to the antique furniture people on Shillshole under 15th Ave in Ballard where the tracks cross the road at a very small angle if you want an idea of how frequent a problem this will be).

-------------------------
Car-Free since 2005

jeff job
Senior Member

Posts: 821
Joined: May 2004

Sunday November 04, 2007 3:55 PM

Wide open and waiting for us??? ha ha... John, you are bad. :)

Dale Baxmann
Active Member

Posts: 67
Joined: Jun 2005

Sunday November 04, 2007 5:50 PM

I wrote this to the City of Seattle and haven't heard back from them; what a surprise.....
"I am a pretty regular commuter from the UW to King Street Station in the afternoons. My usual route takes me along Eastlake to 9th where I turn south and head to the downtown core and pick up 3rd to head to the station.

During this past year or so, the construction of the toy train streetcar or SLUT has been an annoyance but I have lived with it. Now it seems this project is close to being done and the finishing touches are being worked on. Here is my complaint.

You have taken one of THE most traveled routes from Campus to Downtown and riddled it with dangerous train tracks, running right down the middle of the route. Its bad enough having to cross tracks, especially that jumbled mess where Fariview veers left from Eastlake as you round that corner going south/south west. Now we have to decide where to ride safely with tracks running right along side us. Do you pick the lane WITH the tracks in them and hope you don't have to make any sudden lane changes or do you take the lane without the tracks, the only open traffic lane and battle it out with cars and trucks? The thing that really confuses me is that you have designated this as one of the bike routes for the Seattle Bicycle Master Plan. Frankly, I am at a loss of words to describe my complete confusion as to why this is. Have any of you actually ridden this stretch of road? Do you realize the danger in riding along parallel with the tracks and the hazards they present to an already harried commute or route? This is complete nonsense.

How exactly would you propose a cyclist get from South Lake Union to Downtown now? Do you want us up on Fairview following the MAIN bus route as they navigate their way through the gridlock up in that area trying to get to the Convention Place Station? That is a mess in the afternoon, no thank you. Do you want us going under 99 on Broad? You've got to be kidding me.... Ninth is fine until you veer right onto Westlake where the tracks are. Westlake is the only safe street we had getting to Downtown. It is relatively free from major traffic, a direct and flat route which if you haven't figured that out yet is most desirable from a cyclists viewpoint, and easy to get to many destination in downtown.

In all honesty, I really think your department has lost touch with the reality that cyclists face in the real world. Do us a favor and stop spending so much time looking at a map and get out on the pavement ON YOUR BIKES and ride some of these routes before just deciding for us that this is the bike route and just never mind those street car tracks.

If you have some super plan to make all of this better I am all ears. At the very least I would like to know the reasoning behind the (alleged) planning of this.

I would appreciate a reply please with some explanations."

Once again, we got hosed. Complete streets my butt. Bicycle friendly city, compared to what, Baghdad?

John Weller
Senior Member

Posts: 598
Joined: Dec 2005

Sunday November 04, 2007 10:43 PM

Wow, I need to read what I write a few more times before I post it. That one didn't go anyplace near where it was aimed. Good grief.

Doug Nellis
Senior Member

Posts: 101
Joined: Apr 2006

Monday November 05, 2007 9:46 AM

This past spring at a SLU "street fair" I spoke to some SDOT representatives regarding the bicycle hazard that these tracks create. They seemed shocked and dismayed at such a notion. "Hmm, we never thought of that," they said. When it comes to the SLUT SDOT is either ignorant of, or indifferent to, the safety needs of cyclists.

Shaun Darragh
Senior Member

Posts: 971
Joined: Jun 2007

Monday November 05, 2007 3:32 PM

The only endo I've ever experienced was due to trolley tracks in Boston - I hope not to repeat the experience here.

-------------------------
Please support my fight against Cancer by sponsoring me in the Livestrong Challenge: http://seattle09.livestrong.org/shaund

Trevor Hall
Senior Member

Posts: 103
Joined: Jun 2003

Monday November 05, 2007 6:15 PM

I'm kind of surprised that SDOT is claiming ignorance regarding the impact on cyclists. It's right there, in the Technical Report from April 2005:

6.6.2 Bicycles
In general, streetcar impacts to bicycle travel can occur in two ways: one is when the
cyclists need to cross the streetcar tracks, and the other is when the tracks are parallel to a
lane where bicycles travel. Crossings can be accommodated, and the ideal crossing angle
is ninety degrees. Parallel travel can be accommodated if the tracks are in the inside
lanes and cyclists can use the outer lanes.

Bicycle travel on Fairview Avenue between Valley Street and Ward Street would
continue to occur on the outside (curbside) lanes, where the streetcar tracks are in the
inside lanes. On Valley Street, cyclists will need to cross the mainline streetcar tracks
near Fairview Ave N. and at Westlake Ave N., as well as the maintenance base access
tracks (near Boren Ave. N.). Along Westlake Avenue between Olive and Thomas streets,
where the streetcar tracks are in the outer travel lanes that would typically be used by
cyclists, cyclists will be required to use alternate routes.

In other words, Westlake south of Denny is no longer considered to be a viable path for bicycles. Personally, I'm not sure the rest of the route is viable, either. I was riding along Fairview during a test run of the trolley last week. I was in the "outside" lane, where I was supposed to be, along with all of the other vehicles. Cars just didn't seem to realize that they can drive over top of the trolley tracks and ended up lining up behind me. This is a disaster in the making.

Doug Nellis
Senior Member

Posts: 101
Joined: Apr 2006

Monday November 05, 2007 7:12 PM

To me it really doesn't matter if the tracks are in the inside or ouside lane. If they're anywhere on the road, they make evasive maneuvering dangerous. And since no alternative cycling infrastructure has been installed, Greg Nickels, Jean Godden, Paul Allen, et al have effectively made a major route through South Lake Union unusable for bicyclists.

Joshua Putnam
Senior Member

Posts: 850
Joined: Aug 2004

Monday November 05, 2007 7:12 PM

This should not surprise anyone at SDOT. The hazards of unfilled tracks for cyclists are documented in Federal and State standards for bicycle and pedestrian facilities. If they didn't know, they must have been closing their eyes really tight.

-------------------------
Josh Putnam

http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bike.html

Shaun Darragh
Senior Member

Posts: 971
Joined: Jun 2007

Monday November 05, 2007 8:50 PM

Perhaps sharrows need to be painted down the middle of the non-SLUT travel lane on Westlake? I haven't ridden Westlake for awhile, but I suspect that I will take the non-SLUT lane the next time I do.

I suppose another solution to the gap may be found in a judicious application of concrete.... ;-)

-------------------------
Please support my fight against Cancer by sponsoring me in the Livestrong Challenge: http://seattle09.livestrong.org/shaund

Gene Smith
Senior Member

Posts: 235
Joined: Mar 2006

Monday November 05, 2007 8:52 PM

What were you expecting SDOT to do to mitigate placement of the tracks? Or were you expecting them to build the tracks on a different street? What can be done now? Nothing? Request that they plan better next time (to quote Dale "get out on the pavement ON YOUR BIKES and ride some of these routes before just deciding for us..."? B**ch and moan? Sorry but all I have are questions.

Joshua Putnam
Senior Member

Posts: 850
Joined: Aug 2004

Monday November 05, 2007 10:15 PM

They could use compressible gap filler and rubber track guards, that's fairly common nation-wide, and has been used elsewhere in the Seattle area for 20+ years. Expensive to do a long length of it, but if the right lane was the only place the tracks could go, then making them safe should be part of the cost.

They could (I shouldn't even say this) put in more of those frightening left-side bike lanes.

They could at the very least put up signs warning that the road is not safe for bicycles -- that appears to be what the Technical Report suggested above, "cyclists will be required to use alternate routes."

They could revise the city's official bicycling maps to show these streets as hazardous rather than preferred cycling routes. And take the time to develop safe alternatives.

What they should *not* do is just pretend the road is as safe as any other road.

-------------------------
Josh Putnam

http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/bike.html

Lee Williams
Senior Member

Posts: 603
Joined: Jun 2005

Tuesday November 06, 2007 3:06 AM

Sadly, it seems like they're not pretending it's as safe as any other road. They're pretending that there are alternate routes of similar quality through the SLU neighborhood. Fortunately, the kind of "hip urban technology" neighborhood Paul Allen is envisioning probably doesn't have many people who ride bicy... oops?

Doug Nellis
Senior Member

Posts: 101
Joined: Apr 2006

Tuesday November 06, 2007 8:31 PM

Keep in mind that there is a plan to extend this line up Eastlake to the U District. This would totally destroy a major north/south bike route. Hopefully bicycle safety mitigation will be taken into account in the future.

Shaun Darragh
Senior Member

Posts: 971
Joined: Jun 2007

Tuesday November 06, 2007 10:57 PM

I think that it's time to start some letter writing campaigns and holding some feet to the fire. Didn't Seattle pass a Complete Streets program?

If the city doesn't work to reasonably mitigate the problem, I hope that anyone who has been injured will start filing claims against the city, contractors, and design firm.

Also, if the city does try to run this toy train up Eastlake without a proper solution, I would hope that Cascade and BAW would join together in a court fight to stop it.

There are several reasonable alternatives to Westlake. There are no reasonable alternatives to Eastlake.

-------------------------
Please support my fight against Cancer by sponsoring me in the Livestrong Challenge: http://seattle09.livestrong.org/shaund

Rob Brown
Senior Member

Posts: 3552
Joined: May 2003

Wednesday November 07, 2007 4:15 AM

Shaun that's a great idea and this problem is potentially extremely serious to someone(s).... anyone know
who to write? Should be easy enough to provide a reasonable safe solution.

-------------------------
Rob - ***Carfree since 1993***


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